Curse

Synthetic · Apr 17, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

I see no reason to nerf the 55ers. I do not think that they ruin the economy at all, in fact, I think that they help to better the economy. Ectos would be rediculously priced if 55ers were not present. Furthermore, 55ers can't really do a whole hell of a lot anymore. They can 2 man UW where ectos are few and far between anymore or they can do trolls which really don't have many good drops.

On the topic of bots....
ANet is working to get rid of them but no matter what builds are around bots will be here to stay. People will find something else they can use bots for. It is just going to be a fact of playing. They will get rid of them soon enough the old fashioned way without having to alter the game play to do so.

I play with bots for fun sometimes when I'm on my SS necro. The bots suck for the most part and they are annoying to play with from the necro's standpoint. Besides that I own them when I get 2 ectos and they have 0. Then they say something about 50/50 and I just ignore them or leave. What are they going to do report me that their bot got screwed by me?

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 17, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

ok, my question, which btw, NO ONE has been able to answer...

why call for a nerf on the 55 when a trapping ranger can do trolls in droks just as well?

or a wammo?

arent these "ruining" the economy just the same?

honestly, people call for so many nerfs we're all gonna be hitting each other with 1-dmg rods soon

Your absolutely right. Nerfing the build itself is not the answer something has to be done to the game as a whole.

Quote:

They flamed you? Be the better person. Take the high road. Ignore the idiots who can't have an intelligent argument.

But where's the fun in that?

Quote:

I see no reason to nerf the 55ers. I do not think that they ruin the economy at all, in fact, I think that they help to better the economy. Ectos would be rediculously priced if 55ers were not present. Furthermore, 55ers can't really do a whole hell of a lot anymore. They can 2 man UW where ectos are few and far between anymore or they can do trolls which really don't have many good drops.

Again it's not as simple as "when there is more coming in the prices will be low but if not many come in then the prices will be high". The economy in GW is not as simple as some make it out to be.

Kool Pajamas · Apr 17, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

No he didnt say he used them, he said he plays with them as in he is Necro the bot is the monk.

NagaSurayami · Apr 17, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Well to be honest if your going to Nerf this i would saying in Sorrows Furnace and Fissure Nerf the Book Trick / Gear trick because that bug is just as bad as a 55 bug.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 17, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

agreed

quickmonty · Apr 17, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

I say we just nerf everything. You can't even leave town unless you are doing a mission or quest. No more farming, not more running ..... just play the game the way it was meant to be played.

/end sarcasm

ubrikkean · Apr 17, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

I, having played a normal monk that takes great pleasure in stacking health regeneration, very much disagree with the idea of removing that... however, I do definately agree with the rune thing, not because I hate 55 monks or anything, it just seems to me that runes shouldn't stack for health reduction, same as they don't for their attribute points. When I first heard about 55 monks, I was very confused about the health reduction stacking, I thought it was just an exploit or something that would be fixed. Still, I don't care that much either way, it just makes more sense to me for it not to stack.

Maria The Princess · Apr 17, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

Actually the game was designed to be played as a team. A team of people, henchies or any combo in between is up to you but a team none the less not solo. It seems to me with the new chapter that they have boosted the PvP part of the game and lowered the PvE and might mean that anet wants a game as the title of it dictates, "Guild Wars". Wouldn't surprise me if chapter 3 is nothing but PvP with a few quests along the way just to get to the next PvP area.

I'm sure a few people (the ones that do nothing but farm) would leave the game but for every person that left you would have new people come (the ones that stayed away calling it Farm Wars). That's what the game is really becoming and I'm sure that is NOT what anet wanted to make.

If you farmers want to go farm then maybe if you bug EA Games or Maxis they might come out with a new line of MMO called Sim Farming.

ANET is smart that they did pvp + pve in 1 game. like this they target more audience, those who like playing role playing story and thoser whi like pvp, and what eles is smart, they introduce the two together, so if i would never buy a pvp ior pve only game, i get to learn it here, because its here WITH the game i was paying for, and maby in future ill buy a pvp only game. this is a smart strategy to attract buyers and keep people palying.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 17, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Another "just nerf everything" post. Come up with something.
Despite the sarcasm that doesn't seem that bad of an idea. It still wouldn't do anything with farming. In SF it's the quests that are farmed.

Edit: I agree with you completely Maria.

Robin_Anadri · Apr 18, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I jumped to the last page after reading the first four, so pardon if this reiterates a previous poster.

Anet doesn't want to kill farming. They have stated on many occasions that they have no trouble with honorable farmers. They recognize that for some people, farming is something that they enjoy, whether it's the play of farming itself, or they just enjoy the process of getting decent drops and making a profit on their time.

And some people like to "farm" for the sheer hell of it, because it's challenging and fun. I've made a 55 for my mesmer, necro, and monk (and the monk is the least fun - i can kill a mob much faster with my SS necro 55.) I was getting bored, then I took a friends suggestion to make a 55 mesmer, and found a whole new enjoyable thing to do. I 55 in the morning before I go to work, or other times when I only have 10-15 minutes to play, or if my guildies aren't on and I don't feel like putting up with pugweenies. It's injected a whole new enjoyability into the game for me. I'm going to make a 55 build for my elementalist this week I think, I've been wanting to see how hydrae like earthquake/aftershock up close and personal.

And that is what Anet's intent was. If not, they *never* would have introduced the -health foci in the first place. They don't hate the 55 builds, if they did, one simple change would be all they would have to do, and they would do it. They'd make Protective Spirit target OTHER ally.

Could that be worked around? Sure. But it'd end the solo 55 players. Do they want to do that? I don't think so.

Frankly, I think a lot of the animosity that people have toward 55 builds *does* come from jealousy. Among the more base of human phenomena is the feeling that if you can't have something, nobody should have it. Or if you can't do it easily, nobody should be able to do it.

Honestly, I was a little nervous starting a 55 build because I could tell that it took a certain amount of skill that I wasn't sure I was up to, it was really the idea of making a 55 mesmer at a wee tiny percentage of the cost of a 55 monk that got me to try it to all. And sure enough, I was very dead, very quickly, quite a lot when I was learning how to do it. But I learned how, got pretty decent at it, and now it's one of the most fun things I do.

People often hide the uglier feelings behind platitudes like "farming hurts the economy which hurts everyone" - a statement that is actually demonstrably untrue. Maybe it would be better if, as several previous posters have suggested, people who don't like 55 builds just ignored the people who do. Live and let live. And I bet, if you really are, under all that grousing, nervous/afraid of trying the build, you could approach almost any of us 55'ers for help. I, for one, would be happy to show you how to put the build together cheaply on a mesmer or necro and show you the ropes. After all, that's how I learned and I'm paying it forward.

In the mean time, take a moment, breathe, live and let live, be in peace.

quickmonty · Apr 18, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

A breath of fresh air.

Thank you Robin, for a thoughtful post.

Xpl0iter · Apr 18, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh4ft3d

/notsigned. this is about the 80th thread on this topic, and frankly, I almost don't feel like convincing others again. About the Ele person, noone "forced" you to make a necro. 55 Eles can be very effective too, and have the advantage of being able to use Obsidian flesh instead of an Elite for damage, because the're skills dont require an Elite to do damage. 55s drive the GW economy, and I don't want to see the effects of what would essentially be a "Stock-Market crash" of GW. Prices would skyrocket, and noone would be able to buy decent weapons.
EDIT: I did read the post before me, just clarifying.

*chuckles* for a person who seems to know it all, isin't really reading me at first place. I am not asking a NERF on 55 monk. I am asking a BUILD for EVERY profession so they can all solo farm with their OWN skills. You are suggesting me using 55 monk skills on my ELE, and i am quite shocked to even see you saying it since, why the hell do i need an ELE for if i am going to use all MONK skills to RELY ON ?
IF farming will continue to go on, why not just allow all professions to do it in their own *effective* way? i do not see why 55 supporting skills only. I have tried earth line and it is not even CLOSE to be as good as 55 line, hence why i even SPEAK.

You are telling me about a market which i can define in much better way than you. I would suggest that you read MINE, and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sparrow

Since I farm successfully then why the strong anti farm arguments? Because I want that superior absorbtion and that max gold weapon and not want to have to farm to afford it. It's been mentioned that if farming was nerfed then rare drops would increase in value since the rate at which they come in would decrease. That is only partially correct. For the first little bit the price will go up but in the long run the amount of gold brought in would decrease significantly forcing those with the maxed out weapons to sell it for less since noone would have the money to afford it at the 100k+ price. All in all Prices would drop.

Before i even reply you any further, i suggest you learn from this guy. He knows much more. Trust me.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

God Apprentice · Apr 18, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary for Hyre

I agree, instead of going after 55 builds...go after the bots, that would be easier and more effective.

Agreed.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 18, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Thank you Xploiter.

I also agree in what you had to say there in that if anet isn't going to do anything about the excessive ("excessive" what I've been talking about all along, not the casual "need a few k cause I'm short" kind of farming Robin talked about) farming then they should allow it so that every class can farm just as easily as any other. Sure the 55hp build are limited to where they can farm but so are all classes. The difference is any of the 55 builds are dirt simple to use while the mesmer, ele and ranger (one I know first hand) are trickier to use. So if anet isn't going to do anything about the farming in the line of putting an end to it then they should provide every primary class the necessary skills and items so that a build can be made to farm just as easily as the 55hp and W/Mo stance (which only seem to become more effective with the more melee enemies there are).

As for Robin. The kind of farming that you described is casual farming. 10-15 mins now and then won't do anything to anyone. I'm talking about the people who get on on the weekends or after school/work for a couple hours doing nothing but farming while only taking 10-15 mins to actually do any quests and missions. However what you said about

Quote:

People often hide the uglier feelings behind platitudes like "farming hurts the economy which hurts everyone" - a statement that is actually demonstrably untrue

is simply untrue. Anet themselve have said in an interview (a section quoted by Mandy Memory more than once one these forums) that excessive farming (the kind I'm talking about, not the casual you talked about) does have a negetive affect on the economy which in turn as a negetive impact on everyone else (who doesn't farm excessively) to be forced to farm more just to keep up. Their words, not mine. It's also not just the farming either but what they do with the items they find. With all the casual farming I have done whatever I didn't GIVE away to friends and guildies and didn't use I SOLD TO THE MERCHANT AND/OR TRADERS. Yes I could get more by selling to other people but I want to see the prices at the traders drop and be more affordable. The only way to do this is if the sell surpasses the buy at the trader so the supply becomes greater than the demand from the trader's perspective. I'm even thinking of taking a break from playing to do nothing but etting farm and sell every rune (no matter what the value) to the rune trader to try and get the prices down.

God Apprentice · Apr 18, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

With all the casual farming I have done whatever I didn't GIVE away to friends and guildies and didn't use I SOLD TO THE MERCHANT AND/OR TRADERS.

I do the same thing

Str0b0 · Apr 18, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Ok bad idea. They nerfed the 55 with enchant strippers and what happened? The 55's started packing spell breaker and taking SS necros with them. The nerf was defeated farming continues. If you further nerf the 55 they will find another way around it. It's that simple. The only thing you do is increase their party size and even then it won't stop the farming it just makes them do more runs to make up for the drops they are havig to split. I don't know how many times I have to tell you people. Farming will NOT stop. People will always find a way to grind out their items as long as items exist in the game. If you want to stop farming then you literally have to remove item drops from the game. That's the only solution. I'm not being sarcastic I'm being serious. Everytime you change something you have to alter the game in some way shape or form. You create a vacuum somewhere for some other build to step in and take over in the solo department. You might decrease farming for a few weeks while the build is perfected and tweaked but then once it's fool proof farming is up and running at full speed. That is why when people suggest the whole "nerf this or nerf that or make farming harder" crap the rest of us just laugh because we know that you will never get what you want, which is an end to farming. People ,like us, will always find ways to do it. We will find ways to do it solo to maximize our drop assignment and you will still have to pay 50-55K for a Sup absorb or 100K for a godly weapon. May advice to you? Get used to it and stop wasting breathe and bandwidth on suggestions that cannot be implemented successfully.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 18, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Your right str0b0 the farming won't stop. As long as people can do it a little more often they will do it alot. So what is anet to do. Stop the drop? That would just be bad all around. So what they have done and will continue to do is make it more and more difficult for people to do it solo or in pairs especially in high level areas. That way instead of 8 people getting 100g per kill each they are forced to team up and that 100g each becomes 100g split between them (12 or 13 gold each). That way the only farming that can be done is the casual kind that doesn't have a detrimental affect on the player driven economy and again prices may rise initially for rare items but when the wealth of the general public drops those rares selling for 100k+ will have to be sold at half that just for people to be able to afford it. Also rare items in general will be rare again. Sorry but being able to get atleast one gold per run (no matter if it's max or not) is not rare. Rare is if you get a gold drop in half a dozen or dozen runs. So in places where a gold is always going to drop it's still a 1 in 4, 1 in 6 or 1 in 8 chance it will be for you. Before you come back with something on that last part take a look through your previous posts since I'm sure some of those who love to farm and is completely against the antifarm idea has said themselves rare items should be rare. Maybe not in this thread but in one of them.

Quozz · Apr 18, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Well I guess I will add my 2 cents into this discussion.

Point #1: Nerfing skills or items is not the solution for ending solo farming. The reason for this is that its not items or skills that make solo farming possible. This leads me to...

Point #2: Solo farming builds work because of two current game mechanics. First is that players know what monsters will spawn in certain areas and secondly they know what skills those monsters will be bringing to the party. If the programmers implement a system of random creature spawns and further make those creatures have varying effective skill sets (example: Trolls could have trapper trolls, warrior trolls, or shaman type trolls with the appropriate name and the skill sets for these troll type would not always be the same... Shaman troll could be a boon protector or maybe a domination mesmer). These two changes will utterly destroy all solo farming builds permanently. Sure the 55er might get lucky occasionally and get a spawn that he can dominate but that will be rare. In addition this will greatly increase the challenge level of PVE and as an added bonus will provide far better training for the crossover to PVP play than currently exists in PVE.

Point #3: I personally have nothing against farmers per say. Actually all PVE players farm in some way at one time or another we just don't all use solo builds. Some of us prefer the companionship of others. Still the game as designed is trying to promote skill in playing. Solo builds are gimick builds not skill based builds (thus why you do not see them ever used in GVG). In order to increase the challenge level and keep people playing the game I believe the developers will need to implement the above changes. They can make new chapters all they want but until they increase the variety and challenge level they will slowly loose all but the farmer PVE players and I don't think Guild Farms is their great vision for the game.

Stockholm · Apr 18, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Sharparrow what you are suggesting sounds more and more like what they tried in Russia and China, but as you might have noticed the people in general like to make money and they will find way's of doing it what ever the mighty Rulers do to stop them. Unless everyone is created exactly the same way,(same IQ, same prefernces, same common sense,same drive) the ones that are a little more creative will make more money. Thats life, live with it.

Str0b0 · Apr 18, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quozz

I personally have nothing against farmers per say. Actually all PVE players farm in some way at one time or another we just don't all use solo builds. Some of us prefer the companionship of others. Still the game as designed is trying to promote skill in playing. Solo builds are gimick builds not skill based builds (thus why you do not see them ever used in GVG). In order to increase the challenge level and keep people playing the game I believe the developers will need to implement the above changes. They can make new chapters all they want but until they increase the variety and challenge level they will slowly loose all but the farmer PVE players and I don't think Guild Farms is their great vision for the game.

That part of your post is really quite ignorant. The rest of your points are semi valid but there are too many catch all skills for randomized monsters and skill sets to effectively stop farming. SS is an example. I don't care if you're a monk, a warrior, whatever. You'll take damage from it because it triggers on everything. Randomized spawns won't make a difference either all it will do is make us look a little harder. Now as for Solo builds requiring no skill though that's what I really want to address. If you think that mashing buttons in a certain order or at a certain time is the skill portion of this game then you must be pleased as punch when you get up each morning and tie your shoes. The skill part of the game comes in figuring out synergetic skill combinations and utilizing them to their full advantage. It comes in creating builds and if you want to get down right technical it's the creators of these solo builds that are amongst the most skilled PvE players in the game. They have figured out ways to take on portions of the game that usually require full parties. How can you say that overcoming the game obstacles in such a fantastic way is unskilled? Don't even bring GvG or PvP into this discussion as a benchmark for skill because PvP, GvG and PvE are different animals entirely. Now I'm not saying that the people that copy the builds are necessarily skilled players ,but they are no less skilled than any other player in this game based simply on the ability to kill monsters, which I stress again is about pushing buttons in a certain order and at a certain time which even the mentally handicapped could accomplish with ease, trust me on that one I used to volunteer with a vocational rehab program where I basically taught simple manufacturing skills to the mentally handicapped and they can push buttons in a certain order and at a certain time with the best of em. I'm tired of people touting their ability to mash buttons and time things as a skill. Any moron with fingers and the ability to count can do the same thing. Actually fingers are optional.